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USQRA
United States Quad Rugby Association
US National Team
Player's Corner
IMPORTANT: USQRA policy on IWRF rear most part of chair rule change
BobCrandall
posted 11/17/08 - 6:40 pm
There has been a change to the IWRF chair spec rules regarding the "rear most part of the chair." The statement of this rule is in the Commissioner's Corner in the files. There is also a statement of the USQRA policy for enforcing this rule change.
This rule was not discussed for change at the IWRF AGM in June 2008. The rule change was first published by the IWRF in August and then again in September after the Paralympics.
Basically it reinstates a chair specification which was omitted in a technical rewrite of the rules, stating that the rear most part of the chair must be the rear of the push or main wheels.
In consideration of the changes which must be made to a chair that is NOT in compliance with this rule, the USQRA Equipment Committee issued a ruling in September, stating that until 12/31/2008 any chair violating this rule, and this rule only, will be deemed legal for play in USQRA games.
This is an official public notice of the USQRA policy with regard to this rule.
Yours in rugby,
Bob Crandall
USQRA Secretary
stokes
posted 11/18/08 - 5:38 am
chair ruling
just a question, why is that a new rule for the hoop being illegal, was that always legal before or did it just come into play? just thought the tires were supposed to be what touches the wall first. also since we are inforcing the iwrf rules are we inforcing the number rule 1-15 number rule? dont think we need to but i was just wandering what the usqra was going to enforce. .
Stokes
BobCrandall
posted 11/18/08 - 8:48 am
lost wording
Scott,
When IWRF released their 2006 technical rewrite of the rules the reference to the tires being the rear most chair part was omitted. Many people, especially refs were still considering the tires to be the limit; however, it was not in the rule.
To better support the chair backs, which several high performance players were breaking, Vesco built some chairs with the back cross bar extending beyond the rear tire. I don't know if other chair manufacturers did the same; but, because of the missing wording, chairs of this design had to be permitted in IWRF sanctioned tournaments and the Paralympics.
As you probably know, changing that bar is not an easy fix and requires cutting and welding. Thus, the grace period until 12/31/08 to come into compliance.
Bob Crandall
USQRA Secretary
p.s. - See IWRF Rule Exceptions in CC about jersey numbers.
Matt Lund
posted 11/22/08 - 1:31 pm
Does this seem like enough
Does this seem like enough time for everyone to get the changes made? I just paid over $5000 for a new chair and now I have to spend more money to go cut it up and get re-welded? Will this not reduce the strength of the chair? Was Vesco informed of this? If so why did they continue to make chairs like that? Seems like a longer phase in would be more fair.
gil20
posted 11/22/08 - 3:21 pm
CAN THE USQRA AMEND "GRANDFATHER-ING" THIS RULING?
Gil20,
In past years, the league as grandfathered chair equipment issues like the back support for the current & remainder of a season. Thus, enforcing the ruling for the following season.Is the league opened for an amendment to ratify this chair equipment issue? It can be expensive fabricating a new back support due to ruling for 12-08 deadline. Im going to have to spend $$$ on a change and not buy that X-MAS GIFT for the honey : ) LOL!!
ARMOR CORP.
Gil
BobCrandall
posted 11/22/08 - 8:25 pm
We hear you
I don't know when VMC knew about the rule correction. Your points about cost and longer time ring true. The board will be discussing this issue.
Thanks for your input.
Bob Crandall
USQRA Secretary
VMC
posted 11/23/08 - 10:29 am
MY RANT!
Okay, I’m ready to rant……..AsBob stated, this rule was a U.S.Q.R.A. rule, which was the way we used to build our chairs. When the U.S.Q.R.A. adopted the I.W.R.F. rules, the new rules did not include this requirement, thus when many of our custom ers requested that we make their seat back brace deeper so they could sack out their upholstery more, we did so.
Earlier this year we received several phone calls from custom ers in Florida
From my understanding, this rule was a subject of discussion at the Sports Assembly, heldJune 24 2008 in Canada August 4, 2008 , in an e-mail that was forwarded to us. At this point, we stopped extending the seat back brace beyond the tires. It was also at this point that I started communication with Stan Battock regarding this rule, and the reasoning for allowing the seat back brace to extend deeper. His reply was that it is a” safety issue”, which is totally understandable. I replied stating that if it concerns safety why isn’t there a rule regarding the padding used on the seat back brace, as in the International Wheelchair Basketball rule 3.1.13 which is very specific regarding this issue. I did not receive a reply regarding my question.
Up until this new rule was adopted, we utilized 3/4" thick padding. We have now changed to 1/2" to allow a little more sack out room. I have seen players using 1/8” foam allow them enough room to sack out their upholstery, which IS unsafe.
We at Vesco Metal Craft sponsor six national and 4 international players to use as sounding boards and to get their feedback regarding all aspects of chair performance.
This sport is no different than other sports, in the fact that as the athletes get stronger and faster, their equipment must follow suit.
We as manufacturers,( not just V.M.C.) talk to all of our custom ers regarding their wants and needs, so we have our fingers on the pulse of the players and probably know better than any one committee what the Quad Rugby community needs and desires regarding their equipment.
There needs to be direct communication between the I.W.R.F. and the manufacturers, it is ridiculous that we have to hear these issues second hand, it’s just not very professional to say the least.
We at V.M.C. have had issues with the equipment rules in the past, and the way some referees were measuring the chairs. This is the reason we designed and developed the ‘CHAIR CHECK TOOL’ to make sure everyone is on the same page. Trust me, the very last thing we want is a phone call from one of our custom ers stating that their chair was called illegal. When a new chair leaves our shop it IS legal, according to the latest rules.
We are very sorry for any of our custom ers that got caught in the middle of this rule change. If you are one of our custom ers with an illegal seat back brace, we will gladly fix it at no charge, excluding shipping charges.
scorpion
posted 11/23/08 - 7:24 pm
USQRA Knew about this in 2006
My question is why did USQRA know about this rule change in 2006 and Vesco and players didn't know about this until recently?
So correct me if i'm wrong, players only have 30 days to get their $ 5,000.00 rugby chairs hacked on when this issue could have been addressed years ago? In addition to Gils comment, to have a deadline in the heart of the season when its already an incrediable expense for travel, gym time, rugby chairs, training, rugby dues, tournament fees, hosting tournment expenses, gas, and all other expensesincluding Christmas....December 31st is weird timing...Why not next summer? The shipping costs to Vesco from players outside California alone can be as much as $ 300.00...So for a team of seven with new and old Vesco's which most of all of them are "illegal" shipping could be as much as $ 2,000.00
Why does those bars post a saftey hazard? They all have thick padding around them? Can you explain the logic behind this rule please? Plus addressing rules such as this in a Rugby forum is a start but many players don't visit rugby talk so is the RAC'S personally communicating via phone or email to all team representitives? If not this can lead to a huge communication problem.. Just my opinion..
Tim Daynes Utah Scorpions
VMC
posted 11/24/08 - 7:17 am
CORRECTION......& more ranting.
Bob, In your previous post you stated that the 'illegal' chairs were allowed to be used at the Paralympics, This was not so.
I e-mailed Stan Battock August 4, (the same day I received the forwarded e-mail regarding this change) asking him when this would take effect, hopefully not prior to the Paralympics. I received his reply August 20, stating that the 'commitee' was adamant that nothing could extend past the tires and that the rule WOULD be in effect at Beijing.
Needless to say, I was not a happy camper, being that Beijing was only 23 days away.
To add fuel to the fire, they allowed chairs that were illegal per 2 other written rules to play because.........well, just because.
BobCrandall
posted 11/24/08 - 8:59 am
Clarification
Thanks Tom,
That is new news to me. I knew the players had the printed rules with them, just in case and that the issue was in the open as were the other two issues. I did not know they were not allowed to play those chairs.
I guess since virtually every offensive chair in the world is in violation of at least one if not both of the other two rules, that's the --- well, just because.
Bob
VMC
posted 11/24/08 - 10:28 am
Which rules are YOU refering to Bob?
I am assuming Bob, that you are referring to the rules regarding wings? Which I agree needs to be clarified.
I was referring to chair width (Article 24) and each wheel having a pushrim (Article 27 a.)
The rules were just updated 10/2008, yet these rules still exist, but are not enforced.
I have brought this to Stan's attention regarding this issue and he replied, stating that he sent it along to the 'committee'.
Tom
BobCrandall
posted 11/24/08 - 11:36 am
Rules clarification
Tom,
I keep forgetting that there are three articles in question.
Art. 24. Width
There is no maximum width of wheelchair. No point on the wheelchair may extend in width beyond the widest point of the push rims.
and
Art. 27. Wheels,
Para a.
The main wheels shall have maximum diameter of 70 centimeters. Each main wheel must be fitted with a spoke guard that protects the area contacted by another wheelchair, and a push rim. There shall be no bars or plates extending around the main wheels.
[Reinstated wording] The rearmost part of the main wheel shall be considered the back of the wheelchair and nothing can extend past this point. (See Article 28)
both involve a push rim.
These two articles effect how spoke guards and wheels are built and as a low pointer I have my own opinion, but a decision needs to be made one way or another. The elimination of the push rim from Art. 27 was an AGM proposal in 2002 that did not pass because of the reference to the push rim in Art. 24
I was actually thinking of
Art. 30. Wing,
Para. a.
The outer-most point of contact of the wing must be exactly 11 centimeters from the floor.
Since virtually all offensive chairs have the wing follow the center of the main tire from 1cm down to 3cm, we know that portion of the wing is technically illegal.
My suggestion to Stan was that Para a be eliminated to let Para e. define the maximum width of the wing.
Para e.
The wing cannot extend laterally beyond the center of the tire on the main wheel.
This would require absolutely NO changes to any chair. I don't know why that couldn't be done as it only codifies the specs of the chairs currently in use. I believe the last change as well as the push rim rule changes require parliamentary procedures.
So I gather your beef is, why wink at 'Art. 24' and the second sentence of 'Art. 27, Para. a' violations, while rigorously enforcing the last sentence of the same paragraph.
All of this seems to some to be trivial nitpicking; however, when it comes to guaranteeing the legality of a $4000, a player not being allowed to play in his chair or players having to pay for shipping and manufacturers needing to make significant chair alterations, it suddenly has real meaning to many people.
Bob
VMC
posted 11/24/08 - 2:01 pm
Exactly!
Bob, You've hit the nail square on the head. As I've stated before, rules are rules....either enforce them as written or change them. Seems simple enough to me. Logically speaking, the rules regarding the wheelchair should fall into one of two categories, #1) SAFETY #2) MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE.
If the seat back brace were allowed to extend too much, then it would become a mechanical advantage. I would like to see it allowed to extend to 5cm. including a minimum 1.27cm. thick padding.
I know that as the rule is now written, players that want maximum C.G. in their chairs, have very little room between the brace and their back. Some of our customers have resorted to removing the front half of the pad, which is not safe for them and I don't recommend it.
I would like to hear what other players think.
Tom Vesco
JoshWheeler
posted 11/24/08 - 3:39 pm
Bob, Thank you for your
Bob,
Thank you for your clarifications and input from everyone on this matter, obviously there is some concern on this important topic. I'm new in the sport, so maybe I don't know but how important is this rule anyway? Do we need it? If it is necessary then those that play on the US team (internationally) will need it quicker than the rest of the USQRA in my opinion. Is it possible if the rule needs to be inforced to give us till next season to get it fixed instead of six weeks? It's not good for the players to have to ship their chairs in the middle of the season to get them fixed while we are trying to train and keep in shape. A week or two without a chair can be hard to spare when trying to get ready for a tournament. I assume other players would agree that it would be great if the board would take this into account when they discuss this matter.
I hope this can all be worked out in the best way for the sport.
Josh Wheeler #10 Utah Scorpions
Punisher8
posted 12/10/08 - 11:27 am
Am I the only one that thinks this sucks...
...or just the only one saying what others are thinking? Enforce the rules for all or not!
At the BOE a couple of weeks ago two Eagle riders had their chairs DQ'ed. I was able to beat mine out enough to play in it but have been scambling to find an affordable welder to give me a more lasting fix. My teamate had to park his expensive "non-Vesco" chair until he payed the shipping to get it "legal" for our tournament this weekend. It had been "legal" earlier this year at other tournaments but at the BOE it wasn't, then neither were the Vesco's - wink/nod!
Name any sport that has multiple suppliers and ban one from competition for not being legal and wink at the other for not being legal and you have one massive problem and/or lawsuit on your hands. Even though your Bylaws allow for an exception, by enacting one that favors one sponsor and it's costumers over the rest of us and the maunfacturor of their chairs...in my case Eagle, you are running a very big risk of alienating a sponsor. I know I'm pissed as an Eagle rider. I'm not a big dollar sponsor like Eagle but if I were them...well that's their call.
I'm paying to get mine fixed, it stings. Teamate paid shipping for his, it stings. Life sucks sometimes!
Shut up and PushShut Up and Ship It Already!Kimball #8 Capitol Punishers
hooper
posted 12/10/08 - 2:17 pm
Rules
This has nothing to do with Vesco / Eagle. It's about an omission in IWRF rules. Argue about the details, but the resolution is to allow time now that that omission is added into those rules. We are still trying to set that deadline.
Don't know why the Eagle chairs were DQ'd. They are valued sponsors and needed by players and the league.
Ed Hooper
Punisher8
posted 12/11/08 - 12:47 pm
Rules & Safety
Ed,
My DQ was my fault for not checking my bumper for 20 cm no gap. Four hours of leave time and $85 later and I'm good to go. As for my teamates chair that was DQ'ed see below-
Art. 30. Wing,
Para. a.
The outer-most point of contact of the wing must be exactly 11 centimeters from the floor.
Since virtually all offensive chairs have the wing follow the center of the main tire from 1cm down to 3cm, we know that portion of the wing is technically illegal.
It seems Bob's comment about "technically illegal" has been upgraded to literally illegal. Two weeks between a DQ and our tournament and $160 shipping and it's good to go.
No problem, rules are rules so let's all follow them or not.
Now that we lost...uhhhh no practice time and $245 we will have to cancel our plans to travel outside the USA and play some teams from the West Coast! -LMAO - (sometimes I crack myself up)!
If the USQRA is going to defer to the IWRF for it's rulemaking someone may want to be assigned to review the minutes of every meeting and revisions to rules in the future.
Later and good luck all!
Kimball #8 Capitol Punishers
hooper
posted 12/11/08 - 12:59 pm
Rules
The USQRA membership voted to adopt IWRF rules.
The Equipment Committee could use thoughtful and knowledgeable members. Contact Bob Crandall for details.
Punisher8
posted 12/11/08 - 2:09 pm
Committee Work
Equipment Committee -
Thoughtful/opinionated - YES
Knowledgeable - couldn't keep my own chair legal, probably not the best fit. LOL!
I'll look at the Committee List and see where I can contribute.
Kimball #8 Capitol Punishers
hothouse
posted 12/27/08 - 4:49 am
Ho hum ho, this central
Ho hum ho, this central problem goes around every single year in some form or another. Yes, the rules are written for all to follow however enforcement of the rules seems to be at the leisure of the referees whenever they seem like enforcing them. There is no USQRA or IWRF requirement saying that chair manufacturers have to sell chairs that are legal - unlike manufacturers of cars, forexample, that have to be road legal and registered befre sale. If a player/person requests changes to be made to their equipment by a manufacturer (or engineering shop) then they just do the work. It is generally assuemd the player/person should know the rules. Likewise, if I went to a mechanic and asked them to remove the brakes completely, they woud do it, but the ultimate responsibility lies with me to ensure that the work I requested complies with the road rules (according to my example).
So in fact, Vesco, Eagle, Melrose whoever it is, dont HAVE to manufacture chairs that are legal, they do it as a service to their customers (and it makes good sense too as obvisousy sales increase with lega equipment). But as Tom wrote, if a customer requests a change, then the amnufacturer jsut does it. If the customer requests a change and asks if that change will affect the legality of the chair, only THEN can responsibility be put on the manufacturer.
There was a rule change a few years ago instigated by the US that all picker bars were to be a minimum of 6mm diameter. Almost everyone around the globe changed their pickers to this smaller size (I think the old size was around 8-9mm). It resulted in massive costs to players but a continued increase in cost becuase pinch flats became FAR more common. I myself, went through almost $250 worth of tires and tubes in one tourney.
Anyway, at the end of the day, if ref's and officials want a little more respect from players, a uniform PROCESS needs to be put in place for every tournament in the USQRA. My suggestion would be an equipment check some time prior to the first match. Problem is that this occurs at some tournaments and not at others.
I remember playing in 5 tournaments 2006 and NEVER had my equipment checked and saw MANY illegal chairs in matches. Then, all of sudden when things mattered, there was a compulsary equipmet check the night before the start of the National Championships. There were some 18 equipment infringements handed down to players, leaving many people scrambling to find welders and engineering companies to make late night mods to their chairs.
The end result was a total lack of respect for the USQRA committee and its officials. The process should have been followed at every singe event, it didnt even happen at sectionals, it just illustrates a lack of professionlism.
It happens internationally as well. The charging rule which has been in place for years but never called once in my career was called at a tournament in New Zealand and Australia only about 18 months ago. Every year we find the officials bringing out some obscure rule or choosing to enforce different elements of the rules in order to make themselseves a massive part of the game. It is these inconsistencies that make it extremely difficult to us as players to just "play the game".
Anyway thats my take on the whole thing
dan
posted 12/29/08 - 5:47 pm
Is 12/31/2008 still the
Is 12/31/2008 still the deadline or is this going to be extended until the end of the season.
Dan
Jacksonville Brooks Bandits
Matt Lund
posted 12/30/08 - 2:16 pm
I really hope we all could
I really hope we all could be given to the end of the season to take care of these changes.
BobCrandall
posted 12/31/08 - 3:11 pm
New deadline - Before post season
Chairs which "DO NOT" comply with the chair specification rule
"The rear most part of the wheelchair is the rear of the main wheels."
will be disqualified from post season play.
Bob Crandall
USQRA Secretary